Audio Money as a Hidden Creative Collaborator with Paul & Laura
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[00:00:00]
Harriet Formby: and in that moment I felt embarrassed. I felt annoyed.
Paul Macauley: we were both just so tired and emotional. Yeah. Which is the worst time to be dealing with money.
Paul Macauley: But that brunch morning a nutshell, sort of encapsulation of money in the arts,
Laura Mugridge: We calling it brunch gate.
Paul Macauley: Brunch gate.
Laura Mugridge: But I think that we learned so much from that.
Paul Macauley: it felt symbolically important.
Harriet Formby: A lot of money content will tell you to budget better, be more disciplined, manifest harder, and just hurry up and fix yourself
Harriet Formby: The Money Story Project is where we go deeper and wider into who we are, where we came from, what we've experienced and discovered along the way through honest.
Harriet Formby: surprising, deeply human conversations, stories and expert voices helping us make sense of why money feels so complicated. I am your host, Harriet Formby, chartered accountant, fractional [00:01:00] CFO, trauma-informed finance coach, and insatiably. Curious about the human side of money? I.
Laura Mugridge: My guests today are Brighton based creative partnership Paul Macauley and Laura Mugridge, making independent theater and audio work together. Both Laura and Paul are award-winning theater makers with years of acclaimed solo and collaborative work behind them.
Harriet Formby: Laura's first solo show running on Air. Won a Scotsman Fringe first at Edinburgh in 2010, performed inside a vintage VW camper van, and was featured on the BBC's culture show.
Harriet Formby: Paul's solo show. My Heart Is a Spark. Won the Audience Choice award at Brighton Fringe
Harriet Formby: And together. They created inside the lines a warm audio comedy about two friends who run Brighton's most unusual business, a coloring in service where you bring the [00:02:00] artwork and they do the coloring. For a small fee of course, series one of Inside the Lines is out now, wherever you get your podcasts.
Harriet Formby: And today we're exploring money as a hidden collaborator in creative life. So a big welcome to Laura and Paul.
Laura Mugridge: Oh, hello Harriet.
Harriet Formby: let's start with exploring the feelings and emotions that come up around money.
Laura Mugridge: as soon as I think about the kind of wider issue of money, I just sort of go, oh, okay. Like, you don't realize how much there is behind something until someone asks you, 'cause I think it's something that we don't talk about.
Laura Mugridge: Like me and Paul have never had a conversation about. Really before in terms of our emotions around it. So this has really prompted us to talk about it and it's a bit like,
Laura Mugridge: oh, okay. There's quite a lot of things now that I hadn't thought about.
Laura Mugridge: it's brought up a lot of stuff for me.
Laura Mugridge: I'm not gonna say that stuff is now.
Laura Mugridge: I think
Paul Macauley: [00:03:00] exactly the, the space to talk about that stuff. What is that stuff?
Laura Mugridge: I think it's about, like, I was, I was brought up in a very consistent home, like my dad was a police officer, my mom worked in a agricultural college and I was never really aware of there being any ebbs and flows in income.
Laura Mugridge: It was just not something I was really involved in. And I feel like we had a very sort of conservative with a small c I'm, to be honest, probably quite a big C as well, conservative upbringing we had. nice things, but we didn't have flashy things. Like the money didn't go on sort of fancy cars or, or really, really expensive holidays.
Laura Mugridge: Like I got a bike for Christmas, but I remember I just got a bike for Christmas and, and, and then having grown up and gone into the arts, my income is hugely variable. And so that kind of up and down I think [00:04:00] has been something that has such a contrast
Harriet Formby: I've also been making my career in a very different time. And, my life is very different to, the life of my parents and the life that my mom had while she was bringing up children is very different to the one that I have bringing up my son. I was brought up in Lancashire and I live in the southeast.
Laura Mugridge: I live in the most expressive place to live in Britain. Why? Why but you know, that's where my friends are. That's where my career is. so it brings up an awful lot, spanning a really long time. Paul, you,
Paul Macauley: oh my gosh. Well, when you first read money, Woohoo, like literally the sort of, the bodily response that I first felt or fear.
Paul Macauley: Well, I start talking about money. There's a tightening It is not like a, ah, relax. Like there is an involuntary kind of, I dunno, tensing or something about that. if I think about why and where that comes from, I do wonder like I often equate money with [00:05:00] scarcity and not having enough and worry about not having enough.
Paul Macauley: and worry about the what is required in order to get enough of it. And, and again, I think going back to sort of childhood stuff, maybe slightly different to what you described. So I remember like when I was very young, there was definitely a period in time when my, parents were separated and we had a new family and a, a stepfather and everything.
Paul Macauley: And I remember a period of time where it was money was really, um, tight. It was really difficult, And I think as children we were exposed to some of the emotional rollercoaster of that I think was a source of stress and worry for our parents. And I think we knew that.
Paul Macauley: And I think we knew not having enough money was a, an emotive, thing. And when I think about my siblings, I think we've all carried that into our adult lives and had to work with that in, in our adult lives, in our own ways. and the other bit that comes up for me, apart from the sort of oh money, big feelings is money is [00:06:00] directly linked to income and and therefore work and work is what you need to do to get money.
Paul Macauley: But also my relationship with work I feel is complicated. 'cause I think one of the messages I grew up with is that the work is inherently boring, not something that anyone wants to do and is a necessary evil in order to get the money to be able to survive. So this is weird kind of relationship between you don't have enough money, so you need to go and do something you don't want to go and do to get what's necessary.
Paul Macauley: And I spent a long time trying to unpick that and I think part of what that seeded in my head was this idea that, earning money is a direct barrier to like having freedom and autonomy and being able to, do what I want to do with life. So I think. Work and career and money. I've gone on a journey to sort of deprogram some of that stuff and try and land on a place where it's like, I can earn, enough and I don't have to sell my soul to do it.
Paul Macauley: but I still feel that tension an awful lot, I think.
Laura Mugridge: Mm.
Paul Macauley: Yeah. [00:07:00]
Laura Mugridge: So to sum up,
Paul Macauley: money can feel it's something that's done unto you or that's what it's felt like to me, is a force that happens to me. and I think part of that changing by the way I think and feel about it I want to feel like I've got more control over it.
Paul Macauley: and I had this, really great boss who's a mentor, and she ran this, company and including. It's finances. She was all over that and she had a very sort of practical can-do attitude around money. And she said, money is just a lever. And, that's really stuck with me because I think we're told like, you need money in order to do anything, but actually it's just a lever and it's one of many levers.
Paul Macauley: and it's a lever you can pull, I dunno, maybe that's a metaphor that's about feeling a bit more empowered in like a relationship with money and just sort of saying it's not the only route to get things done.
Paul Macauley: because I think we live in a very transactional, economically focused society, and it seems like money is involved in [00:08:00] everything and it doesn't have to be.
Laura Mugridge: Yeah. I think it's involved in more things than we realize it is actually. And I've been thinking a lot about this over the last few days. there's something about money that I just don't, want it. I'm like, get rid of it. I don't want it. I need it, but I don't want it. And if I don't have it, then it's gone and I don't have to worry about it.
Laura Mugridge: But if I've got it, I don dunno what to do with myself. And, and that's, I think that mindset is responsible for quite a lot.
Laura Mugridge: I live with my partner we moved in together a couple of years ago, and we've combined our finances and, before that I was, living just with my son as a single parent.
Laura Mugridge: And my partner, he sees money very much, is just maths. That's how his brain works. Like it's maths. But I make that noise when I think about money. So he'll say, oh, we've got this big bill coming up or whatever. are you able to contribute? And I just go, oh, well I do. You know, I, I'm, because I'm self-employed, it's [00:09:00] less predictable for me.
Laura Mugridge: And I also work in the arts, which is a hugely sort of squeezed industry at the moment. And he has a salary job, and he's like, oh, when he says, are you able to contribute? I hear like, why aren't you contributing enough to this household? You, you are stupid job working in this, in the creative industries.
Laura Mugridge: But he's just saying like, I need to make this number up. can you make that number go up? How much can you make that number go up by? And it is kind of radical to me and it really helps me that he does see money as maths. if he does have emotions connected to them, they're very straightforward.
Laura Mugridge: And I think his main approach to money is that he doesn't ever want me to feel bad about things, but he recognizes that even asking simple questions like, when are you next getting paid for something? it's just about making up that total. and I think he doesn't like knowing that that has an impact on me.
Laura Mugridge: [00:10:00] So I think those are his emotions around it. And he also has emotions around, you know, suddenly finding himself in a house with two other people. 'cause he lived by himself before,
Laura Mugridge: in charge of his own finances and we've combined everything. So I think he feels that pressure of now
Laura Mugridge: He's the breadwinner. and he's tackling that stuff. But it's radical for me to be in a relationship with somebody who's like, it's just maths. I'm not saying get another job. Your job is stupid. I'm like, no, I know you're not, but it just makes me do that noise again, you know?
Paul Macauley: But what you said there about being self-employed and you know, the emotionally loaded thing about when's the next bit of money coming from.
Paul Macauley: Yeah. and I've also worked for myself for about the last five years or so, and a lot of people in the arts work for themselves, and that's a rollercoaster, isn't it, being a freelancer or whatever. and something that I've had to sort of tangle with, and I wonder if that's part of what you were talking about, somewhere we kind of get the idea that the money we earn is tied to our [00:11:00] value and our sense of worth and even identity and stuff like that.
Paul Macauley: So I've had times where I've had dry spells in terms of work. I don't feel good about myself. Like I feel like, do I have anything of value to offer given the fact that no one is currently paying me to do that thing? and that's a whole thing to go through as a freelancer and as an artist
Paul Macauley: And that sort of relationship of money to what you are worth.
Laura Mugridge: Mm-hmm.
Paul Macauley: And stuff like that.
Laura Mugridge: I think we're all told as, as sort of teenagers and young adults who want to go into the arts. Yeah, you can have your job in the arts, but, or you can have your little hobby go and do that, but you're gonna have to get another job you're gonna have to have your backup job.
Laura Mugridge: So I have a degree in drama and in French, I did a joint degree. and I remember really having that discussion in that my parents were like. you need to have something else. and actually now I do pretty appreciate that 'cause I got to live in France for a couple of years, I had a lovely time.
Harriet Formby: but there was a real sense [00:12:00] of like, look, do drama for fun and then do something else to earn money. And actually that's not the way that it's worked out for me. in that I earn all my money through theater and theater adjacent stuff. And I feel quite proud of myself for that. Yeah.
Laura Mugridge: ' cause all you hear there's a real narrative of out of work actors.
Laura Mugridge: Oh, you're gonna do a lot of work in cafes, a lot of working in restaurants. And I remember going to a, an bed and breakfast in Stratford once and, the man serving as breakfast said, oh, you know, what do you do? I said, oh, I work in theatre. He went, oh, you just waiting for your big break?
Laura Mugridge: And I was like, um, and it really threw me, I was like. That's really a really rude thing to say, people wouldn't say that to people in other industries. I think.
Harriet Formby: Yeah, it's like it's been normalized, to kind of have this hierarchy against creative People as though it's not a real job or something. 'cause it's almost like from childhood you are told like you said Paul, like work meant to be boring and [00:13:00] hard and then you have to earn money as like a punishment that you go through all these things to be punished, to be allowed to earn money.
Harriet Formby: And like going against the grain, actually enjoying your work and creating your own path is, I think it's jarring for some people But it's probably does also come from a place of
Harriet Formby: fear of like, actually doing something different 'cause we absorbed so many messages, you know, from like our parents of wider family, community, school and all the people that we're around and we're growing up that kind of say, this message, don't they?
Harriet Formby: Of like what success looks like or something.
Paul Macauley: Yeah, I,
Paul Macauley: it's interesting hearing Laura's point of view, like view on that and as you were saying there, Harriet, that kind of message you get about creativity and like, work is for this and the arts or creative stuff is for that. so I didn't earn my money through like the arts.
Paul Macauley: I've always earned my money through doing stuff I didn't want to do, you know? Mm-hmm. I worked in shops and I graduated to being a temp in an office and stuff like that, and then I made. My films and plays and bits outside and I had this very, very compartmentalized view of [00:14:00] myself. There was professional shows up to work Paul, and there was go and make these strange things in the world, Paul. and I felt they were very, separate and I had this almost schizo view of myself. Like, I felt like in one world I wasn't really properly there, I wasn't really a professional and I wasn't really an artist. I I didn't belong in either place. And then I had this real change at this job that I had where, weirdly, and the reason I got this job, 'cause I was temping somewhere and, the staff there wanted to do something for a Christmas party.
Paul Macauley: They said, we want to do a pantomime all the staff will be in it. And I said, well, you know, I know how to write and direct a play, so I'll do that. That's
Laura Mugridge: such a huge project.
Paul Macauley: I know
Laura Mugridge: you were like, yeah, fine.
Laura Mugridge: Alright.
Harriet Formby: I.
Paul Macauley: But it was, and it was really fun. and it evolved like, directors were in it and managers and like people from all across the organization and and I was like, oh, I know how to do this.
Paul Macauley: And people really enjoyed it. And my boss at the time said, oh, I saw a side of you that I'd never seen before. Like, you got [00:15:00] people involved and you led this thing and you helped them be creative and stuff like that. And, and to me I was like, well, yeah, that's just what I've been doing outside of work for a long time.
Paul Macauley: and that ultimately led to a job that brought some of those skills in, but it kind of made me realize oh, the stuff that I do outside there has value in this professional context and vice versa. Anyway, so that to me started to heal that sort of schizoid thing I had about myself.
Paul Macauley: And to what you were saying earlier, Harriet, like. I kind of realized like, oh, actually maybe I can carve my own path here. I don't have to fit myself into other people's boxes. Maybe there's a way of, figuring out how to bring these two bits of myself together, and that's what began my sort of freelance
Paul Macauley: and I, I guess, more flourishing creative life as well.
Laura Mugridge: Yeah. I, I was talking to somebody yesterday I've been thinking about me saying that I earn money from theater or theater adjacent things, and I'm like, oh, is that true actually? Is that true? And I think it is, like, I run drama camps, [00:16:00] theater making camps with children but there is a sense of like, but those are the things that I do to pay the mortgage.
Laura Mugridge: But then I do also earn money through rehearsals and making shows and. I think I realized yesterday how defensive I feel about having all those things which do fall under the same umbrella. You know, I do medical role play with Brighton Medical School and Cambridge University to train doctors, with their bedside manner and their diagnosis and the way they use language to speak to patients.
Laura Mugridge: And someone said to me once, oh, but obviously you need to do that to keep the wolf from the door or whatever. And I was like, no, I actually really enjoy it. I really enjoy experiencing lots of people deal with the same situation in wildly different ways. And I can offer feedback and say, if you tweak that language a little bit, I felt a bit undermined when you said that and people value my opinion there.
Laura Mugridge: And that's what I take into rehearsal [00:17:00] rooms as well, I keep an eye on the little details and the same with my teaching as well, but I didn't realize until yesterday really how defensive I feel about that because I'm not earning all my money through going to rehearsals, being in shows.
Laura Mugridge: I've got a friend whose husband is, in the Back to the Future musical. He's been doing it for years, that's his job.for want of a better word, that's his day job. I know someone who was in The Lion King for 14 years, that was his day job, and that was kind of, I was like, oh, would I want that?
Laura Mugridge: I was like, I don't think I, I don't think they cast me in the Lion King, but,
Laura Mugridge: but. I would quite like to be in the Lion King name.
Paul Macauley: What, what animal would you be in? The Lion
Laura Mugridge: King? I'd be the giraffe fun.
Paul Macauley: Okay.
Laura Mugridge: Because you get to be on stilts. Okay. Anyway,
Harriet Formby: Yeah.
Laura Mugridge: I've never been on stilts before.
Harriet Formby: New experience. Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Mugridge: training, stilt training. Do you have a lot of stilt trainers who listen to your podcast? Harriet
Laura Mugridge: If anyone listening who [00:18:00] is, then yeah, please, please do Get in touch. But no, I, I don't think I'd want that. Like, I had a salary job for about 18 months. I worked at a concierge company on Oxford Street in London, and every day was obviously very different we once had a call saying, there's a wasp in my house, please, can you get someone to come and get it?
Laura Mugridge: I was like, I feel like you could probably tackle that yourself, but Okay. And then, you know, we'd have to, I had to organize a hen party in, Paris for like 15 people. so it was quite varied in terms of the work. I went to the same place every day. Same office sat at the same desk. And I hated it in the end because there wasn't enough variety.
Laura Mugridge: But it was the only time in my life when I've had for an extended period of time a regular income.
Paul Macauley: Yeah. that makes me think of something else about money and working, and especially like nowadays, I think we grew up probably in a generation that had a high degree of stability.
Paul Macauley: Mm-hmm.
Paul Macauley: And security, you know, the whole [00:19:00] job for life, pensions, housing, all of that kind of stuff. And we are in a far more volatile world. And even like workwise, we're in a far more volatile world and everything costs more and stuff like that. And I kind of feel like,Maybe at some point laboring under this sort of illusion that I could have, that kind of thing.
Paul Macauley: But we live in a really uncertain world, and I feel like being freelance and finding your own way is probably quite a good capacity or response to mm-hmm. Develop in the context of the world that we are in because everything's just up in the air. So I,
Harriet Formby: Hmm.
Paul Macauley: and I don't know how much you can rely on, you know, a job that's gonna be around forever
Harriet Formby: Yeah, I, I almost think it's more stable to be like self-employed, but have lots of different activities you're involved in. So all your eggs aren't in one basket because if you're employed and your job goes and like AI and stuff that's happening to more people that had really sort of steady like management jobs or whatever, suddenly you are kind of having to rebuild.
Harriet Formby: Whereas if you're freelance, you can do it. I'll do bit [00:20:00] this and I'll do a bit of that and if that one drops down I can go over here and like I'm adaptable and I'm used to having to like find my opportunities.
Harriet Formby: Laura, it's interesting, like you said about feeling defensive. Like it's no wonder you feel defensive it's so strange how normalized it is to be, stereotyping basically. And I know from like the stats that actually the creative industry is a massive contributor to the economy.
Laura Mugridge: Like it's a hugely big economic activity. So even if you were like, looking at it through the lens of like what makes money for the economy, like it's a huge thing Yeah, I mean, I feel like now I'm in a position where I've kind of been through, moving away from my family, moving to a different part of the country, I lived in London for a while. I had a baby, I got divorced.
Laura Mugridge: I've been through a pandemic. if I've managed to still be working in the arts or working in theater specifically, having been through all those things, I'm in it now, you know? Yeah. Like any one of those things could have thrown me off [00:21:00] course, but it hasn't, but I recognize talking about having all those little things.
Laura Mugridge: So I see it as a sort of circle around me. Of all those different places I get income from. Mean, I teach, I work with a theater company in Brighton called Ensonglopedia that do science-based,shows. we're touring one at the moment. We're also working on a new project that's coming up.
Laura Mugridge: I work with Paul. I do the medical role play. There's lots of the things that I have and then in late summer, autumn last year, we were focused on a project that was self-funded, which we'll talk about and for various reasons, several of those projects didn't get funding,
Laura Mugridge: and so that left me panicking actually in sort of October, November. And then I did a show over Christmas at the Theater Royal in Brighton, and that was three weeks of, proper like paid appropriately doing one thing. I was then paying back for that brief period of time when everything fell away.
Laura Mugridge: And so I'm [00:22:00] panicking that I need more things in the circle around me to go, oh, right, we didn't get funding for this. Okay, I'll go over here and do this thing.
Paul Macauley: Yeah. I agree with Harriet that I think that is the way to go, like to be nimble and to create new opportunities
Paul Macauley: And it is a constant thing I feel like with our work and, and stuff I do, I do like, marketing and video and content kind of creation stuff. essentially just helping people tell the stories of like what they do. But I feel like we're, constantly lobbying messages in bottles out into the ocean.
Paul Macauley: and hopefully, some sort of, start to come back. But it's a constant thing of trying to think a few. steps ahead. But then, I think about like, would I want a salary job I don't think so. I think I'd sort of stagnate and I feel like even though it's scary to be on that edge, and I've had moments of like, I don't dunno how I'm gonna pay the bills.
Paul Macauley: am I even doing the right thing real sort of doubt and questioning myself. I'd rather be there because, at least I'm having to sort of figure it out rather than just kind of [00:23:00] stagnating at a job somewhere and then emerging from that being made redundant after 17 years and going, what the hell am I doing?
Laura Mugridge: Yes.
Paul Macauley: You know, it, it's a constant process of making it work, you
Harriet Formby: Yeah.
Paul Macauley: Yeah.
Laura Mugridge: I know that in the beginning of this year, they've introduced an Ireland, the, basic income for artists. And like for me that would be the dream. Then you'd feel like, okay, there is an element that is taken away in terms of panic. the blind panic all the time.
Laura Mugridge: Which actually I think we do absorb it. But that would be so valuable and it would also make us feel like genuinely valued as an artist.
Laura Mugridge: Like you are bringing something, like you said to the economy. and then obviously it's a basic income and then you can earn more on top of that. And I just feel like everyone would make better work.
Paul Macauley: Well, all of this thing about observations about artists, I think apply to anyone who's also creating their own path, like as an entrepreneur or a solo [00:24:00] business owner
Paul Macauley: 'cause you are basically trying to create something and make that work every single day. But you are right. Like I wonder if a lot of people would relate to that thing about, feeling the utter panic of that, but trying to be creative within that panic.
Laura Mugridge: Yes.
Paul Macauley: And I think that's a real tension sometimes.
Paul Macauley: It's like, I'm really worried about this, but I've gotta think and act in a really sort of expansive and creative way. and I think that's a lot to ask from artists and. freelancers And I think that's what, what makes those people, so wonderful is they can operate in that.
Paul Macauley: But maybe it shouldn't have to be as hard as it is.
Laura Mugridge: Yeah. I think sometimes you can get very, locked into that kind of panic about, about money and like, and all the numbers. And actually if someone just said, right here's some money that the ideas would flow more easily.
Laura Mugridge: 'cause it is really hard to be creative and forensic at the same time. I also have to recognize that, you know, I live with somebody who has a salary job and I'm very privileged to be in that position. he [00:25:00] works, for the council. so he's not a banker or someone who's earning millions, but there isn't that general kind of massive panic all the time in my household, which I feel very lucky to have and haven't always had that I had a, flat, that I had with my son and I was on the housing benefit and, you know, working tax credits and really struggled to make it work and kind of had to totally rebuild my life
Laura Mugridge: in a different town and was very lucky to have amazing friends and support around me.
Laura Mugridge: But I'm still adapting, I think to getting outta that mindset I think maybe I brought the panic with me. I should have just left it there.
Harriet Formby: Yeah, it's understandable 'cause it kind of, attaches to you then, doesn't it? Of like the vigilance side of am I okay? Am I actually safe? Like, is there a problem with, money I think such a big point. Is that we can glamorize the struggle and the [00:26:00] pressure that makes you creative and like, I wouldn't have done that unless I'd had the pressure.
Harriet Formby: But at the same time, like, gosh, if people just didn't have to worry about surviving Let's hope. There's good stats coming out of Ireland and hopefully they'll roll out.
Harriet Formby: I know that like with universal basic income stuff, I'm sure, I can't remember where, but possibly Scandinavian sort of countries have got it and it works really well
Harriet Formby: So Thank you for bringing that one up. I know that you both work very closely and collaboratively on projects
Harriet Formby: how have you found, working together on the creative side, but also the business angle of the money and the conversations
Laura Mugridge: so we were working separately as artists and both obviously also had other jobs. but we, when we first met, we made a piece of theater, together. Paul had written a show and asked me to come on board and direct it. And then we've made a live theater show since then, which we're currently touring.
Laura Mugridge: And it didn't feel too much like money came up as part of that. Really
Paul Macauley: I think like, the stuff that we make together is all independently [00:27:00] produced.
Paul Macauley: or has been so far. so when we first made that thing, it was very much was made on a shoestring. It's like the driver is we wanna make something together and we want to give it to people. Like, that's the thing. so then the money thing just becomes like, oh, well what do we need to cover?
Paul Macauley: You know, the limited expenses we have to sort of pay it back.like I, I'm interested in financial principles.
Paul Macauley: Yes.
Paul Macauley: Oh, it's a way of saying, well, well, it is basically like, what do we agree on is important when it comes to the money. And I think one thing is we always have to cover our costs in whatever we do.
Paul Macauley: We have to find the ways to make pay for itself.
Paul Macauley: Mm-hmm.
Paul Macauley: Because then that just means we're not out of pocket. I mean, that's is a simple thing. so we try to pay attention to how much money we're spending and how we're kind of getting.
Laura Mugridge: Paul loves
Paul Macauley: a
Laura Mugridge: spreadsheet.
Paul Macauley: I love a spreadsheet.
Paul Macauley: and then, the other thing that's come up recently is being commercially minded, but not commercially driven. But let's think about the money and acknowledge that what [00:28:00] we make has value and we need to find ways to help people, give us something in exchange for that value.
Paul Macauley: But that's not the driver. And it shouldn't be the driver. the other thing I kind of think about is our team has expanded, like it's me and Laura, but we now work with a wonderful producer called Kate, led.
Paul Macauley: We've got a wonderful, audio and multi-talented, artist and creative when I write Gwen, who's, produced our audio series.
Paul Macauley: so now it's like, okay, the choices we make about money now also have some effect on others, or we need to recognize that, you know, it's not just us involved in it.
Paul Macauley: and the thing around that, that I keep coming back to, okay, it's like relationship first, then the art, and then the money in that order. and that's the thing to pay attention to.
Paul Macauley: but I found it quite, challenging 'cause it's like realizing, oh, you think about money in this way.
Paul Macauley: Like, Laura, you go quiet around money. Yeah. And, uh, I, Laura
Laura Mugridge: make a noise
Paul Macauley: or you make, or you make the noise and I probably overthink it and kind of go, how are we going to make [00:29:00] money in nine months time from this thing? And can I put it into a spreadsheet? 'cause I want to control it. 'cause I'm about that.
Paul Macauley: I want agency and control and, Also the thing I have around money and making stuff, and I've always made my own stuff, and I think part of that comes from, I don't want my ability to make the thing that I want to make, be determined by someone else saying yes or no in form of giving money or not.
Paul Macauley: I want us to find our own way.
Laura Mugridge: just to be very clear, I don't think that my way is good.
Paul Macauley: Oh. I don't think, and I don't think my way, like and this is the other thing, it's like, you know, it, it left your own devices.
Paul Macauley: I think both of us would go off in an unhelpful direction. So there is something about the overlap where we meet in the middle.
Harriet Formby: Sort of perspective.
Paul Macauley: Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Mugridge: I think we both know that our approach is wrong, but you know. Yeah. Flawed. Um, yes, flawed.
Paul Macauley: Well, it is, it is Maybe not the only way.
Laura Mugridge: Yes. Okay. Let's say that
Paul Macauley: I [00:30:00] feel like there's some nervous energy right now. I
Laura Mugridge: dunno what you mean.
Laura Mugridge: So last summer and autumn, we made a, an audio sitcom, inside the lines, about two friends who run a coloring in shop.
Laura Mugridge: And, it was a lot of work, for all of us in different ways. And, also Gwen, who was our sound designer, she worked an awful lot on it as well. Like, she came to the project sort of quite a late stage and then took it on We all took it on as a massive sort of passion project and, we had a launch party.
Laura Mugridge: In September, and I was very aware that it was all going through Paul's, bank account because Yeah. I, I don't know. Well, 'cause you are more organized than,
Paul Macauley: well, and, and, and not just that, but we don't have a shared bank account for artistic work because we haven't never need to have one.
Paul Macauley: like, so for inside the lines, we independently produced it. We made six episodes and they're really good quality and you know, because. We don't want to be out of pocket. We were like, how do we make the money back to do that?
Paul Macauley: And it wasn't big money. it probably cost [00:31:00] a couple of grand to make or something, but we were like, okay, we know how to do events because we've done shows before and maybe we'll try and sell some merch. so we did that and we then you kind of set all this stuff up and then you kind of get into the practical thing of like, okay, well who's bank account does
Paul Macauley: Those ticket sales money go into. And kind of go, okay so I need to keep an eye on that. And I think maybe where you're heading towards is like the morning after the launch. Oh.
Laura Mugridge: So yeah.
Paul Macauley: So we had this launch, which was like the culmination of this
Laura Mugridge: beautiful party.
Paul Macauley: It was
Paul Macauley: wonderful. We had 80 people in a room, coloring in and listening to our, podcast.
Paul Macauley: people were laughing. We had a giant party ring cake. We sold some inside the Lines merch. It was brilliant. And that was five, six months of. Hard work the next morning.
Laura Mugridge: so Gwen, our sound designer who lives in Wales, we got her down to Brighton.
Laura Mugridge: We really wanted to celebrate her 'cause she worked so hard and also we love her. and we were like, we are gonna take you out for brunch. And everyone was very tired and quite emotional And there was this moment where I thought that we had money from the [00:32:00] ticket sales for the event.
Laura Mugridge: but that was all going through Paul's account and I hadn't thought about it and should have thought about it. in terms of the cash flow of like with our merch, we pay for the merch and then people buy, anyway, there was a cash flow situation, but, and we both sat there in this cafe.
Laura Mugridge: We both told when we were gonna pay for brunch and I was like, I don't think I actually have enough in my bank account pay
Paul Macauley: And I was also thinking, I don't think I have enough enough bank account. and it sounds like really small, but it was like, if I think about the feelings of it, like we were both at the end of our resources.
Paul Macauley: But in a nutshell, it says so much about what it's like to create your own work and to be there. We wanted to buy brunch because we wanted to celebrate. 'cause we worked really hard also, we hadn't been paid and it felt important to honor the contribution no money had changed hands.
Paul Macauley: So it felt symbolically important. Yeah. and we'd some money off our own back we put and thing in place. But it was sitting in my bank [00:33:00] account. There was some assumptions on your side that I was taking care of it, assumptions on my side that we were gonna split it.
Laura Mugridge: Yeah.
Paul Macauley: and in that moment I felt embarrassed. I dunno how to pay the bill. I felt annoyed. It's like, well I dunno what to do here.
Laura Mugridge: Yeah.
Paul Macauley: And so it was really frustrating.
Laura Mugridge: We were both just so tired and emotional. Yeah. Which is the worst time to be dealing with money. But I think that we learned so much from that.
Laura Mugridge: I can't remember how now, but we sorted it. and Gwen got free brunch.
Paul Macauley: and I think like, having those kinds of conversations around money and other things as a creative partnership have led us to have some really deep conversations and understand. Oh, this is how you think about that. And when this happens, you are likely to react like that.
Paul Macauley: Yes. And you know, and all of that kind of stuff. But I do think about that, that brunch morning as a nutshell, sort of encapsulation of like money in sort of the arts, especially when you're making your own stuff.
Laura Mugridge: We calling it brunch gate.
Paul Macauley: Brunch gate.
Laura Mugridge: So how do you like navigate that? did it cause tensions
Paul Macauley: yeah, I would say yes it did. We're different. Me.
Laura Mugridge: [00:34:00] Yeah, no, it did. And I think we'd spent a lot of time together, in the lead up to the launch and then we had a two week break from each other, didn't we? we didn't plan it like that, but we just sort of naturally did. And that sort of felt, it kind of felt okay, but I think we both knew that like we were doing that.
Laura Mugridge: For ourselves and for each other.
Paul Macauley: Yeah.
Laura Mugridge: You know,
Paul Macauley: I, I I think it did. Cause
Laura Mugridge: yeah, it did cause
Paul Macauley: tension we did come back to it as a conversation Yeah. Weeks later and sort of like, acknowledge it and now we are gearing up for series two of the podcast.
Paul Macauley: And we're also looking at, creating a new project as well. And I think that is has informed, like oh, we need to acknowledge how does the money work? Yes. literally on the practical level, you know, where does it go and stuff like that.
Paul Macauley: Mm-hmm.
Paul Macauley: And so we can sort of share responsibility of it, but also it is that money and value thing like.
Paul Macauley: how do we recognize the value of what other people are bringing to it in a fair way. but also in the context of it's very difficult to be fair because if we were all getting paid what people professionally [00:35:00] producing an audio sitcom would get paid
Laura Mugridge: thousands and
Paul Macauley: thousands.
Paul Macauley: It couldn't happen. It couldn't happen. And, it goes back around to that value thing. it's another feeling I feel especially with involving other people is, sometimes a feeling of guilt and shame that I can't do more to, like I value them so much and I want to work with 'em so much and I wish I have more to give them.
Paul Macauley: But also recognizing that the answer is not something that people do just for money. And there are projects and we're so lucky to have found these people. There are projects that people just want to do because they love them and believe in them, but that's hard to hold.
Harriet Formby: like they've consented and said, yes, I want to work on this. but there's this feeling of like responsibility and you've got to work out where the line is
Laura Mugridge: Yes.
Laura Mugridge: we're doing a live show in a few weeks. Time we also are touring with a piece of theater that we've made. And, we're receiving a fee from the theater, but once we've covered expenses, that's not just being divided up between the two of us because we are the two people on stage.
Laura Mugridge: 'cause we recognize that our producer and our sound and [00:36:00] lighting designer and Dramaturg also is part of the team that has allowed us to get there. we, we feel very strongly that that fee should be divided up as fairly as possible between those people.
Paul Macauley: and
Paul Macauley: I think part of what we've learned having gone through, moments of tension between brunch
Laura Mugridge: gate
Paul Macauley: brunch gates, is that I think you have to have that conversation and including with the people you're working with, like. It's not just on a practical level, like this is an unpaid thing.
Paul Macauley: And actually, and maybe it's a shame that most artists assume it's not gonna be paid. But anyway, that's another conversation, but it's not paid. But also, we do want to honor your contribution and we can cover your expenses. Just saying it out loud instead of not saying anything at all and feeling a.
Paul Macauley: A bit ashamed, a bit guilty or a bit worried that it's gonna come up? I think bringing it out into the open, as a general subject, that's what takes the sting or the power out of money. Yeah. Is actually just saying it out loud.
Laura Mugridge: I think saying stuff upfront is hugely important.
Laura Mugridge: about, 15 years ago I [00:37:00] worked on a project and everyone was friends and we all kind of set off on this thing, and it was paid.
Laura Mugridge: and then, the demands on our time, my time were pushed and pushed and pushed and it felt like, oh no. I think actually if this was, if this had been made official, I would be saying, well, no. I can't, I, that's my day off and I'm entitled to that. And so it all became a bit icky.
Laura Mugridge: Mm-hmm. So then moving forward through that, I learned when I'm working with larger companies, even if it was companies that I knew socially to be like, right, let's get it in a contract or something. So then we don't have to, negotiate this emotionally if, should anything happen. Because then you've got the maths, you've got the maths to back that up.
Laura Mugridge: You've got the piece of paper that says, if this happens, this will happen. And then you don't have to get all like up emyo. That's a,
Paul Macauley: that's a great term, emotional negotiation.
Laura Mugridge: Yeah. It's horrible, like around money. It's horrible to do that.
Paul Macauley: And, the other thing when we have those conversations like, we're doing this [00:38:00] second series
Paul Macauley: And as part of that, we are looking to raise a bit of money in order to pay people just a little bit, And I think sometimes we start that conversation like, oh, I'm sorry. We can only pay you this.
Paul Macauley: And feeling really apologetic about it. I worry about sort of presenting that in a sort of apologetic kind of way. 'cause I think the flip side is actually really proactive and doing absolutely what we can to make that, as better a situation as we can.
Paul Macauley: Mm-hmm. And it's okay for people to say, no, that doesn't work for me. And it's okay for us to operate like this because we want the art, we want the thing to be made.
Laura Mugridge: I really appreciate. now upfrontness about money, even though it kind of, it's something that, that I'm.
Laura Mugridge: Learning and getting better at, because like I said, like money just makes me uncomfortable. I just sort of want it to go away. but I really appreciate an upfrontness. You know, there's certain theaters that I work with who are really, really honest about money and go, right, I can offer you this fee for your show.
Laura Mugridge: and I can then say, well, that's not enough to cover whatever. And they'll go, but that's [00:39:00] all, that's all there is. And I really appreciate that rather than this kind of like, what have you, what do you want? Or what have you got? I'm like, oh, but I don't, I don't know where I stand here and I don't like having to negotiate emotionally.
Harriet Formby: it comes up so much as relationships, isn't it? And communication, even though you think it's about having like budgets and plans, like that helps obviously, but it's how you talk about money and that's the difference and
Laura Mugridge: Also sometimes like, 'cause Paul and I don't check in whenever we work together, we're not checking in every morning like, how are you financially today? Because obviously both our financial situations fluctuate sometimes from one day to the next. So sometimes I'll be able to go, right, if we're going this place, I'll pay for parking or whatever.
Laura Mugridge: and maybe we should check in more often about that stuff.
Paul Macauley: Yeah. like yesterday I bought the pastries just 'cause I was feeling flush. but like the relationship thing it's basically in a healthy relationship, it's a reciprocal thing.
Paul Macauley: Everyone's getting what they need and money might be part of it, but it's like some recognition of like, this is what I want to get out of this, or this is what I need to get out of this [00:40:00] or this to be sort of worth my while.
Harriet Formby: And what's fair changes as well. So that's why I guess you have to keep checking in it sounds like, like what's fair changes, at different stages.
Paul Macauley: Yeah, Exactly. It's, it's a dynamic situation, right? You just have to keep paying attention to it.
Harriet Formby: they used to be like, a lot more funding let's talk about that. So
Harriet Formby: the expectations have changed, isn't it, in terms of like where you can access pots of money for
Harriet Formby: creative projects.
Harriet Formby: So, what's been your experience over the years of how that's changed?
Laura Mugridge: So I've been making work since about 2009. that's, I've been working as a theater maker. I did a standup before then, which never paid a huge amount of money, but, that was also when I was working, doing concierge stuff. But I made a show in 2010, took it to the end of a festival and then it toured and my experience of that show and then shows, uh, for, I dunno, five, six years after that you would apply for Arts council funding and [00:41:00] if it was a good bid, you'd get the funding.
Laura Mugridge: because theaters don't have enough money to be able to pay for shows, the model of touring is really unsustainable. and the theaters don't have that amount of money that would cover a tour. So you have to get backup funding from the Arts Council. That's why the Arts Council exists. My experience was, that all my bids were successful.
Laura Mugridge: And I really took it for granted. But now I'm working with really established companies we didn't get our funding in, in October. And we resubmitted having had a long chat with an arts council, relationship manager. And, we got the funding the second time. But everything had to be put on hold.
Laura Mugridge: That's where all the work went for me in the autumn last year. So I'm very aware of various projects that I used to do that have gone, I used to work Extensively in schools with the creative partnerships, which was funded by the Arts Council I was an artist in residence in a primary [00:42:00] school, and it was absolutely wonderful.
Laura Mugridge: It was two days a week in a primary school. I loved it. I got to do some really fun things, and those things were happening all over the uk that's gone now. They sold that, to Germany, I think like that. So that's gone. That funding has gone, and that was a huge part of my income back in my, late twenties, early thirties.
Laura Mugridge: So I'm very aware of what it used to be like.
Paul Macauley: Mm-hmm.
Laura Mugridge: And I keep being like, oh, you know, it's so much harder now. And, I'm sort of experiencing a sort of grief I mean, it was always complicated and it was always work and having to write all these funding bids, but it feels now like. it's unheard of for people to be getting their funding. I told someone the other day that we'd got this, the other company that I work for, I got their bids and they were like, oh my God, I haven't heard anyone for months who's had a successful bid. And I was like, I know, like I feel really lucky 'cause everything is just being [00:43:00] squeezed.
Laura Mugridge: which is quite different to Paul's experience of touring theater.
Paul Macauley: Yeah. So I feel like I've really heard you oh, this used to be all green fields, but like, this was never as hard as it is now. And I'm kind of like coming in sort of slightly fresher faced and kind of going, oh, what can we do then?
Paul Macauley: And um, and, and then recognizing, okay, there's not a lot of money out there, say from sort of major funders like the Arts Council and stuff like that. But going through the practical realities of like, the show that we're doing next month. Touring that. Okay, well how do you do that without Arts council backing?
Paul Macauley: Mm-hmm. you have to find, theaters who will, contract with you on a sustainable workable level. Ideally, you're looking for some kind of fee and guarantee, but often it's a box office split. what we've learned, I think the appetite for risk is really, really low because theaters are stretched, so they want to program stuff that they know will sell.
Paul Macauley: And for touring shows, they're less [00:44:00] inclined to take a hundred percent of the risk. So the risk goes onto the artists not making their money back. Mm-hmm. And these are people who are already doing things on a shoestring, and you can't blame those sort of theaters. But you're pouring an awful lot of effort into making approaches to theaters, putting funding bids in.
Paul Macauley: And they're looking to you to be really, really clear in demonstrating that what you are offering is going to meet the outcomes they need. So it feels like there's artists that are absorbing a lot of the risk and a lot of the effort in doing that. And
Paul Macauley: It's more people chasing less money
Laura Mugridge: Yeah.
Paul Macauley: And jumping through hoops to
Laura Mugridge: do that. And theaters as well don't want to take risks on doing quotey fingers, um, on new work because everyone has less money at the moment 'cause they'll cost of living. So audiences have less money, they're less likely to take risks mm-hmm.
Laura Mugridge: On seeing things that they don't know. That's why at the moment, there's so many things that are being like musical versions of. Films like, oh, I know that I, I know, you know, the [00:45:00] Bodyguard or whatever, existing IP or Back to Future. I know what that is. I know that's gonna make me feel great.
Laura Mugridge: And, so as people who make new work, it's really, it is really difficult because we know what we're making is good. And we are very committed to it, and we know that it's going to be a lovely experience. we're really good at our job. but the theaters, even if they think that they would like it, they're like, well, our audiences won't come.
Paul Macauley: Yeah. And whether or not that's true,
Harriet Formby: Yeah, I can totally see that. It's really, sad because that means that less people get to experience new things that
Harriet Formby: are different and creative.
Harriet Formby: Yeah.
Laura Mugridge: Fewer stories being created because we are just regurgitating the old ones.
Paul Macauley: Yeah. And.
Harriet Formby: Yeah. That's a really good point.
Paul Macauley: butts up against, maybe there's less diversity in the stories that get told as well. And, It sort of diminishes just the whole sort of cultural landscape really, because it becomes really safe and predictable and stuff.
Paul Macauley: yeah. So it's really hard. Harriet
Harriet Formby: It's hard. It's easy to feel,A bit [00:46:00] demoralized about it, but you have to acknowledge that, inside the lines wouldn't have, existed if you had listened to that
Harriet Formby: You've been resilient, creative, and savvy to kind of come up with a way of, of doing it. And that leads us onto the crowdfunder. and by the way, I've listened to series one. I listened to it in one go because it was so
Harriet Formby: good. I was like, I'm just gonna play, play, play one afternoon.
Harriet Formby: I was like, I've heard them all and then I went back and listened again. Um, so it's really, yeah, I really love it. And I think it's, especially if you have experience of being like self-employed or like a business owner as well, which a lot of people listening are, there's so many like observations that experience and like who you meet along the way and the norms and like the, absurdity sometimes with that, which I think is very relatable for people listening
Harriet Formby: So yeah, definitely check that out. But essentially, you have. Experience that, you know, there's lots of people who enjoyed it and you want to make another series and you are doing a crowdfunder for it because that is a [00:47:00] empowered way to make something happen in this landscape, which gives some, some hope.
Harriet Formby: But love to hear a bit more about Like how you got the decision maybe to do the crowdfunder, what's coming up for you, like emotionally about the money side and you know, that kind of thing sometimes of like, but we've gotta ask people for money and they're not like institutions like the arts council where we're talking to people.
Harriet Formby: And that's different, isn't it?
Harriet Formby:
Paul Macauley: I, well, I suppose to give A bit of context. So we made theater show together and we were like, well, what else can we make? because inside of lines came out a little bit because of that sort of audience and the challenge of mounting and touring a show, it's like, well, can we make something that's not dependent on us being programmed into a venue?
Paul Macauley: Can we make something digital? So we thought, okay, let's make an audio comedy. so we came up with this, I think inside the lines was like the first idea we had, but one of us said, what if it was set in a coloring in shop where basically not to
Paul Macauley: think
Paul Macauley: it's a business where people do the coloring in.
Paul Macauley: Other people haven't got time to do so we said,
Paul Macauley: okay. That's what [00:48:00] it is. So it's an audio comedy and it's set in a shop called Inside the Lines. We'll play versions of ourselves, Paul and Laura, and each, week we'll have a guest character and actually as a creative, challenge or process, we're like, oh, what if every episode is improvised?
Paul Macauley: It's devised with the guest and we create the story in the studio and then we edit it And so it's all independently produced. we're in charge of it, and then we, we will put it out there. So, we were tickled by the idea and it was to try and like, reach people.
Paul Macauley: and we, again, we made it on a shoestring. our costs were mostly around studio time and sort of those kinds of expenses. But, we found a team of people and actors, wonderful actors who were like up for coming to do that together. and it turned into more work than we thought it was going to be.
Paul Macauley: And actually as, as we got further into it, our ambition increased, I think. Yeah, definitely. Because, oh, this is really good. It's gonna sound really good. we've kind of jokingly described it to ourselves as, the radio four comedy that No one com commissioned us to make. but it feels like it's, it's [00:49:00] that kind of quality and that kind of vibe.
Paul Macauley: It's very warm and cozy and absurd and stuff. Anyway, so we put that out there. And because we were just trying to make the thing that we wanted to see, and that was our main driver, and the reaction to it was really lovely. It found an audience who really like it, who want more of it, and that did precipitate a conversation about, okay, we'd like to do more, but what does that look like?
Paul Macauley: Yeah. And how do we do that? Again, without recognizing how much work is involved. How does the money work and stuff? 'cause off the back of that, in launching it, we did all the stuff like the events and stuff like that to try and earn money back. We built that into how we launched it and stuff.
Paul Macauley: So we've learned an awful lot creatively in terms of marketing, in terms of income So now it's kind of like, okay, how do we sit do a second series on a practical level?
Laura Mugridge: Yes. And also how do we create a situation for ourself where we can focus on series twoand if we're getting paid or there is some money involved [00:50:00] in series two, we can focus in on it rather than having to do other things and take on other work to be able to keep everything else going while we're making the series.
Laura Mugridge: Yeah. And, that's what it's about. That's when you know, when people say, but you shouldn't need to get paid for something you really love. It's like, no, I want to, so I can just do that so I don't have to
Harriet Formby: Yeah, you can do it justice.
Paul Macauley: totally. And, it's interesting to think about how we're in a different position because there's something, as a principle, I think, about creating work and not letting the money cart lead the creative horse.
Laura Mugridge: Oh, lovely.
Paul Macauley: Thank you. Very
Paul Macauley: nice.
Paul Macauley: You know, like there's something about, like because we were fortunate enough to have a little bit of time and a little bit of head space to be able to make the thing that we wanted to see and back ourselves. Like we believed in the idea, so we went and made it, and we didn't wait for permission.
Paul Macauley: And we were lucky enough to be able to do that. But now we're in a position where it's like we have a thing. we've proven what it is and people want it. I remember feeling like when we were doing the events that [00:51:00] we were doing and selling merch.
Paul Macauley: Mm-hmm. Like sometimes feeling a bit more apologetic. will you buy something from us? But actually, what I realized is people were happy to do that.
Paul Macauley: Yes.
Paul Macauley: And what I realized oh, people want to support us. We just need to create the mechanism by which they can do that.
Paul Macauley: Mm-hmm.
Paul Macauley: so I'm trying to hold onto that as we go into launching a crowdfunder. Yes. there is a icky way to think about the Crowdfunder thing. It's like, please give us some money. But actually what it's about, it's like you people who want to support us, here's how you can do it.
Paul Macauley: And you can be part of that story. And I,
Laura Mugridge: and I love, like if ever I see, like a friend or even someone who's not connected to me with a crowdfunder, I think, oh, that seems like a lovely project. if I've got a five or a tenor, I'll donate to it. And I feel like, oh, that looks really great, and I love to be part of that.
Paul Macauley: Yeah.
Laura Mugridge: So yeah, I'm not saying I've got any spare money, but you know what I mean? Like, if I've got any little bit I can go, oh, yes, I, I think this project is great. And if that's a way I can demonstrate that,
Paul Macauley: [00:52:00] yeah,
Harriet Formby: it's like a vote for what you want to see in the world isnt it?
Laura Mugridge: Yes.
Paul Macauley: That, yeah. That, that is, that is absolutely it. And that's such a great metaphor, Harriet.
Paul Macauley: Like, where you spend your money is a vote for what you want and believe in. Write that down, write that one down. When I see people like crowdfunding for things and they've got like a really big brilliant idea and they're asking for help and especially they've kind of said, I've really thought about this.
Paul Macauley: We've proven it, or whatever. we are trying as hard as we absolutely can and we've got something here, we just need a bit more help. I'm like cheering them on. I love it when people go set a bold goal and go after it. It's like, yeah, you go for it. 'cause it's really inspiring to realize, oh, it's possible.
Paul Macauley: We don't just have to accept the ways of doing things
Paul Macauley: We can make our own way, it is an interesting thing like putting that out there and one of the things we're sort of thinking about at the moment as we are sort of building this, this crowdfunder is like, how much support is out there?
Paul Macauley: What is a realistic budget for what we are trying to do? Because if it was a fully funded thing. That would be such a huge budget, so much
Paul Macauley: money.
Paul Macauley: But [00:53:00] like, it's a step up from just covering our expenses, but it's not gonna be the fully funded thing. and like how do you pitch that in a realistic way?
Paul Macauley: and ultimately it is a bit of a gamble every time you sell a show or sell whatever, you don't know who's gonna show up. and I think the thing I try to hold onto is just like, well, let's just do it sort of open-heartedly. we've built a world, we want to bring people into it.
Paul Macauley: That's what series two is about. And I think if we offer that with a sort of generous spirit, that's the way
Laura Mugridge: I think open-hearted is a really nice way to look at a crowdfunder, because actually what you are doing is going, we really believe in this thing and we think it's lovely and we want you to be part of the project.
Laura Mugridge: so that feels like there's a lot of love and there's a lot of investment and encouragement in that for me it's part of the. the grief of, well you didn't used to have to do grove and, but actually that is the, to go well, the world is different now. Yeah. Lots of reasons is different now.
Laura Mugridge: I'm different now. this industry is different now and we can either rail against [00:54:00] it. I mean, we should rail against it because it's not Okay. so it's not about going, oh, well, but there has to be a certain level of this is how we make this project exist in the way we want it to. And that's different to how it was 15, 20 years ago.
Paul Macauley: Yeah. Yeah. Different doesn't necessarily mean bad. There are things that are no longer the case that we miss, but there is also in this time of like, huge upset and, that the amazing. technology, age we live in. you can have different ways of creating support and bringing in income.
Paul Macauley: The idea that you can have a direct relationship with your audience And you don't need a theater or a commissioner to be a gatekeeper that's empowering. It is hard work, but it's meaningful work. and I think when, if you do it right it's an extension of the thing that you are making as well.
Paul Macauley: Yes. How you bring it to people.
Laura Mugridge: And we want to be very transparent about these are costs. we are gonna be very clear about these are the recording costs, this is this, this is this, this and this. Because I [00:55:00] think that a lot of the costs in audio stuff we didn't necessarily know what they all were until we had to pay for them.
Laura Mugridge: We do now. We do now. we've got a lot of love and support for Inside Alliance. And if we didn't, we wouldn't be making a second series. Yeah. Like it's really boiled us up and boosted us to know that people want more of it. And we're like, okay, we'll make more. But we, we have to be honest and say financially, we can't make another series.
Laura Mugridge: Yeah.
Laura Mugridge: Funded ourselves. We didn't realize how much we would have to fund the first time round, but like you said, series one was about creating the world. Series two is about inviting people into it.
Paul Macauley: the big thing that we've heard from people, which I don't think we banked on, and I think sometimes we can be quite self-deprecating about the stuff that we make is quite silly and absurd and warm and joyful.
Paul Macauley: Some very uncool things. That's exactly what people have responded to and they've said they've appreciated it all the more because things feel so difficult. So I think there's, something quietly rebellious [00:56:00] about saying, we are gonna go and make something silly because we think it's, what the world needs and can you help us do that?
Laura Mugridge: Yeah.
Paul Macauley: You know,
Harriet Formby: Yeah. How does it feel to make truly independent human work in the backdrop of, what we're living through? Like how does that feel?
Laura Mugridge: it feels, a bit radical I suppose, but it also feels great on a micro and macro level, making silly, warm, joyful things is it's certainly what gets me through stuff. what got me through lockdown, for example, where all our work stopped, but creating little moments of joy.
Laura Mugridge: I was like, that's what I can do.
Paul Macauley: Mm-hmm.
Laura Mugridge: not everybody can do that. I'm going to do that. And for me, that was really solidified in lockdown that I can bring warmth and joy and not an escape in the way oh, it doesn't matter what's happening in the world.
Laura Mugridge: 'cause it really does. It really, really [00:57:00] does. But what I can offer and what we can both offer as artists is like, just come over here. Come and sit over here for a minute.
Paul Macauley: Have a timeout.
Laura Mugridge: Have a timeout, have a glass of milk and a party ring. because you can't fight the world. you can't go out and battle it if your nervous system has gone horribly wrong. So we are like, well, why don't we help reset that and then we can fight in our own little sort of gentle ways.
Paul Macauley: Yeah. I do feel it's like a, quite like a rebellion or a resistance to the thing. And also I feel really proud of the fact that we say, oh, we're gonna go and do this even though it seems silly
Laura Mugridge: there are artists making incredible work, massive pieces of activism
Paul Macauley: mm-hmm.
Laura Mugridge: And like really changing big things and that's really valid and very helpful and what we need. And also like, come and sit over here.
Paul Macauley: Yeah.
Harriet Formby: Yeah. But, they say like, joy is activism as well, [00:58:00] because if you can still be joyful and you can help people to feel lighter and more creative, that's what keeps us going. Like, we need
Harriet Formby: that. We, yeah. that's a rebellion in itself to be like, no, we're not gonna just do as we're told and be miserable
Paul Macauley: I think it's a tendency to get focused on what's not working and the problems and those things need to be fixed But I always try to think like, if all the problems were fixed, what would we be doing then? Well, it would be this, so we just need to be doing that now.
recording-1_2026-03-19_10-19-04-1: Yes.
Paul Macauley: But we can't wait for the perfect time. And that includes, you know, trying to find the ways to make it work financially and practically If it's the thing that you feel that is yours to do, then you have to find a way to make it happen.
Laura Mugridge: it.
Laura Mugridge: Yeah, me too.
Harriet Formby: Amazing. if people want to find out more where should they go?
Paul Macauley: So, inside the Lines, the whole first series is out now. apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcast, YouTube podcast, that's on YouTube as well. so that's there if you wanna binge the whole series in one go. and you know, if you [00:59:00] subscribe, then you'll, get, notified when the new series arrives and, and announcements about that.
Paul Macauley: the crowdfunder launches on the 1st of June. We've got some brilliant rewards for people to support us raising the money we need to make the second series, but also to be part of the world that we're creating. So if you're interested, go check out the link. It would be amazing to have you part of this next chapter for Inside the Lines
Paul Macauley: We'll put all of the links in the show notes to the Crowdfunder and anything else that's coming up
Paul Macauley: If you've enjoyed today's episode, please do sharing it with a friend. Links to everything about today's guests are all in the show notes. And if you've got a money story of your own we'd love to hear from you.
Harriet Formby: See you next time.
